When Jews Lived Under Muslim Rule

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October 28, 2024

13 min read

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Busting the mythical past of peace and tolerance in the Middle East.

“Jews were far more secure and better off under Islam than in Christian Europe.”

That kind of claim is often heard in the context of untangling competing narratives in the Arab-Israeli conflict. In a more targeted version, it is asserted that the advent of Zionism shattered tranquil relations between Jews and Arabs, triggering virulent antisemitism in a previously tolerant Middle East.

Are these claims true?

Starting with Muhammad

By 750 CE, within 118 years of Muhammad’s death, the Middle East was nearly entirely under Islamic rule. That is not to say that non-Muslims were eliminated or had no influence, but - much like Christianity in Europe and then America - Islam became a driving cultural force in the Middle East. Therefore, it is imperative for us to examine the traditions that shaped – and continue to shape – the relations between Jews and Arabs in the Middle East.

The entrance of Caliph Umar (581-644) into Jerusalem, 19th century colored engraving, via Wikipedia

Looking at Islamic sources gives us an idea of the initial phase of Jewish life under Arab Muslim rule. Bear in mind, even if the sources themselves are not 100% accurate, they represent the messages and narratives absorbed into much of Middle Eastern culture.

Sahih Bukhari, a collection of authoritative Muslim oral teachings, tells us:

Narrated Abu Huraira: While we were in the mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews." We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. [So it says in the source – clearly the Hebrew Beit Hamidrash; i.e., a house of learning or yeshiva.] He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

Leaving aside the odd claim that planet Earth belongs to Muhammad alongside Allah, this is a clear encapsulation of the precarious life of a Jew in Islamic lands ever since. How this expressed itself in the lifetime of Muhammad is detailed in Sirat Rasul Allah, a Muslim biography written by Ibn Ishaq (704-761 CE), which says, in part:

The apostle assembled the Jews in the marketplace and addressed them: 'Make profession of Islam before Allah punishes you as He has punished the Quraysh!'

...Then the Jewish tribe asked that the apostle of Allah should not shed their blood, but permit them to carry away as much of their property as their camels could bear. He consented and they loaded as many of their possessions as they could on their camels, even demolishing their houses that they might take away the thresholds. [Incidentally, the reference to taking “thresholds” gives the story some credibility, as it seems an extreme action to the author. Yet, it is likely a reference to Jews taking their mezuzahs, which may have been embedded in, or attached to, the doorpost in some way that prevented removal.]

A not-so-lucky tribe was Banu Qurayza. According to the Muslim sources, after the Jews had decided, “We shall never abandon the commandments of the Torah, nor substitute any others for them,” this happened:

…Trenches were dug in the marketplace. Then [Muhammad] sent for the men and had their heads struck off so that they fell in the trenches. They were brought out in groups, and among them was Kab, the chief of the tribe. In number, they amounted to six or seven hundred, although some state it to have been eight or nine hundred. All were executed.

One man turned to his people and said, “It matters not! By God's will, the children of Israel were destined for this massacre!” Then he seated himself and his head was struck off.

Then, the women and children were taken captive and distributed to the Muslims (with Muhammad getting one fifth for himself). One of the Jewish women, Rayhana, who became a slave to Muhammad replied to his offer of a formal marriage thus: “Allow me to remain your slave; it will be easier for me and for you.”

Sirat Rasul Allah details what happened when Muhammad took yet another Jewish woman hostage from the Khaybar region:

The apostle chose Safiya for himself. The other prisoners were distributed among the Muslims. Bilal brought Safiya to the apostle, and they passed the bodies of several Jews on the way. Safiya’s female companions lamented and strewed dust on their heads. When the apostle of Allah observed this scene, he said, “Remove these she-devils from me!”

It was inevitable that a culture infused with Islam would be influenced by the reported behavior of Muhammad, whom Muslims call “the perfect man” and a model of morality. Naturally, this has impacted the lives of Jews in the Islamic world, whether in the form of systemic discrimination, normalized prejudice or outright violent brutality.

A History of Persecution

A valid observation could be made at this point noting that Islam was founded in an extremely tribal milieu, intertwined with local power politics. Tolerance was not a popular virtue anywhere in the early 7th century. The relations between Jews and Arabs, specifically Muslim Arabs, might be better examined after Islam achieved dominance in the region and was no longer in a fight for survival.

Scholars in a library from the Maqama of Hariri manuscript. Courtesy Bibliothèque Nationale/Wikipedia

Unfortunately, the subsequent history does not look much better.

In the late 700s, Idris I oversaw the destruction of entire Jewish communities in Morocco. In the 12th century, the Almohads presented several Jewish communities with the classic choice between death and Islam – leading either to massacre or forced conversion. In the mid-1400s, massacres throughout Morocco most likely took the lives of thousands of Jews (the Fez Massacre, to name but one, put an end to the Jewish community in that major city). Moroccan Jews were again forced to choose between conversion to Islam and death from 1790 to 1792. In Marrakesh, more than three hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.

  • In Libya in 1785 Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews In 1785, a tragic event occurred in Libya when Ali Burzi Pasha, the Ottoman governor of Tripolitania, ordered the massacre of hundreds of Jews in Tripoli. a violent crackdown on the Jewish community, leading to widespread killings and looting.
  • In Algeria, Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830. It is estimated that hundreds of Jews were murdered each time.

Notably, when the Arab Muslim invasion of North Africa began in the 7th century, the Jews fought alongside – and even led at one point – the native Berber resistance to the Arab invaders. In other words, while Jews are called “colonists” in Israel, it bears remembering there were Jews in what are now called “Arab countries” before there were any Arabs there.

Similar massacres, synagogue destruction and forced conversions occurred repeatedly elsewhere in the Middle East as well, from Egypt to Syria to Iraq. It is worthwhile to focus in briefly on Yemen specifically, as the Jews there suffered what amounts to a localized Holocaust in terms of percentages. In 1679, Jews living throughout Yemen were expelled from their homes and sent to the barren Mawza region to die of exposure and lack of resources. When the Mawza Exile decree was eventually lifted one year later, up to two-thirds of the exiled Jews had already succumbed to the ordeal and those who survived were in poor health and homeless.

The Jews of Yemen faced various persecutions over the decades: forced conversions; torture and exile of community leaders; mass imprisonment; kidnapping of orphan children for conversion to Islam or slavery; and more.

I have not touched on lands conquered by Islam that are not considered Arab today. But I will mention one particularly brutal example, which actually took place in Europe. In 1066, an Arab mob in Granada, Spain, massacred 5,000 Jews and destroyed the Jewish quarter after crucifying the Jewish vizier, Yosef ibn Nagrela.

But Compared to Europe…

Even if we grant that the Jews suffered periodic persecution under Islamic rule, it is quite reasonable to ask the question: Compared to what? Naturally, the first parallel that comes to mind for Westerners is life in the European diaspora under Christendom, with its history of ghettoes, pogroms, Inquisitions, and the Holocaust.

A Jew and a Muslim playing chess in 13th century al-Andalus. El Libro de los Juegos, commissioned by Alphonse X of Castile, 13th century. Madrid

Yet, qualitatively, the situation of Jews under Muslims throughout the Middle East was not significantly different from that of Jews in Europe. Let’s not forget, we are talking about a period of 2,000 years and entire continents - there were good periods and bad periods, good rulers and evil rulers everywhere.

For example, England doesn’t historically seem like such an antisemitic hotbed to most people. Yet, King Edward I issued an order for the expulsion of all Jews from England in 1290. It was only in 1655 that Oliver Cromwell permitted them to return legally. From that point on, the Jews lived peaceful lives, though they faced official discrimination as second-class citizens – like the dhimmi status in peaceful Islamic lands – until the mid-1800s.

In Poland, which many Jews associate with rampant antisemitism, the 1264 Charter of Kalisz specifically secured Jewish rights, including protection from harm, property ownership, and freedom of religion. King Casimir III the Great (reigned 1333–1370) and subsequent Polish kings issued several additional decrees that granted Jews various rights in Poland, including legal protections that were lacking in other parts of Europe at the time. In fact, Poland became a refuge for Jews fleeing persecution elsewhere and a period of relative peace and prosperity ensued in what became the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth until the mid-1600s.

Ukraine, another nation stained with bloody antisemitism, at one point issued currency with a Yiddish inscription on it. This occurred during the short-lived Ukrainian People's Republic of 1917-1920, following the collapse of the Russian Empire.

Fond Memories

All that noted, we know that North Africa is often remembered fondly by Jewish emigrants who left the region in the 20th century. Can we so easily dismiss their experiences?

No, we cannot – nor should we. But we can certainly place them in historical context and note the quirks of human nature, as well.

  1. In point of fact, many of the Jews who claim to remember the good times in Arab lands generally lived there when those countries were under European rule or under a ruler appointed by Europeans.
  1. Moreover, many of the Jews in Arab lands chose European citizenship when the various empires were extending their protection to minorities. For example, Jews in Morocco and Tunisia became French citizens, only about one-quarter of Jews held Egyptian citizenship, and many Iraqi Jews held British citizenship.
  1. Many Jews who migrated from Arab lands – and Arabs from those countries, as well – will openly tell you about the pervasive prejudice against Jews in the everyday culture. Their nostalgia is, I believe, along the lines of Eastern European Jews who emigrated to America singing songs extolling the virtues of their impoverished shtetls - it is “Darbouka on the Roof”.

The Land of Israel is Different

As we mentioned, yes, there were golden eras in the history of Arab-Jewish relations. However, a claim put forward by some ardent anti-Zionists is that things were actually better for Jews in the land of Israel under Islam and before Zionism came on the scene. It is saying that Zionism changed the dynamic. And in that sense, they are correct, but only insofar as it introduced a Jew who fought back – not in terms of antisemitic attacks and persecution.

First, let’s begin with the basic fact that the Muslim Arab conquest of the land of Israel in 636-37 was a settler-colonial enterprise. And they are proud of it, calling it the “Palestine Conquest” - Fatah Filastin (yes, the same word Fatah, “Conquest”, is used as the name of the movement currently in charge of the Palestinian Authority). After the occupation, the majority of Christians in the land of Israel adopted Islam and Arabized and the building of new synagogues was banned.

With the construction of the Dome of the Rock in 691 and the Al-Aqsa Mosque in 705, the Muslims established the Temple Mount as an Islamic holy site. Jews were banned from it for the next 1,000 years. Periodic social and economic discrimination in the following centuries caused substantial Jewish emigration from the land of Israel.

Other notable events under Muslim rule include:

  • The expulsion of the Gaonate – the main Jewish academy of learning and religious authority – in 1071, after Jerusalem was conquered by the Seljuq Turks.
  • The imposition of a dhimmi tax on Jews and Christians and the curtailment of their rights, with more intense enforcement in the 10th and 11th centuries. In the Mamluk period (13th-16th centuries), the dhimmi laws were cranked up to include additional discriminatory practices intended for humiliation. Jewish and Christian communities declined precipitously.
  • The Mamluks also banned Jews (and Christians) from the Cave of Our Patriarchs in Hebron. To this day, you can still see where Jews had to stop for about 700 years, on the seventh step leading into the building, until Israel put an end to the ban after the Six Day War in 1967.
  • In the 18th century, Jewish communities throughout Israel were extorted and oppressed by local tribal and regional chiefs. In Jerusalem, Ottoman authorities restricted the number of Jews allowed to live there and expelled all Ashkenazi Jews from the city due to a debt some of them owed to Muslims.
  • In 1831, Muhammad Ali of Egypt took over the land of Israel. In 1834, there were 33 days of looting and murder targeting Jews in Tzfat (Safed) and Hebron. More than 500 Jews were murdered, unknown numbers of women were raped, property was ransacked and looted, and synagogues were set on fire.

That’s all before the Zionist movement as we know it was a thing.

Then there’s this inconvenient fact, which is worth noting even though it does relate to a time after the Zionist movement was already well established: there are more than a dozen Jewish communities in the land of Israel that were destroyed by Arabs before 1947. But not a single such Arab community.

This partial review is a corrective to manipulative misinformation promoted by anti-Israel terror-apologists on US campuses, in European streets, and in the international media. It is admittedly far from comprehensive. However, an honest and open-eyed review of Arab-Jewish relations can provide a new perspective on our history as Jews, on the Middle East generally, and on the State of Israel’s struggle for survival.

Of course, this does not mean that Israel is always right. Just a reminder that views on current events should be grounded in reality – however complex it may be.

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Judy
Judy
1 year ago

Jews in Muslim/Islam countries wrere 2 or 3 class citizens, and Jews that lived in Muslim countries were not treated right also Jews had to hide their Judaism

Robert Whig
Robert Whig
1 year ago
Reply to  Judy

And Jews in Christian countries were ?

Alfred
Alfred
1 year ago

Jew haters simply are incapable of handling the Truth and Facts, and prefer to live in a fictional World instead! They have perfected the art of distracting the masses from Reality into Fiction, especially Nazi Germany's conspiracy-theorist "Thule Society", responsible for the Holocaust, and MADA's (make America Dumb Again) "QAnon", with identical conspiracy theories as Thule, just more dangerous, as their mouth piece, Trump pretends to be pro-Israel, whereas Thule's mouth piece, Hitler, openly ranted his Jew hatred!

Robert Whig
Robert Whig
1 year ago
Reply to  Alfred

You do know, don't you?, that Trump's daughter married a Jew and converted to Judaism?
That his grandchildren are Jewish?
That he moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem?
That he got Arab States to sign the Abraham Accords and recognise Israel?
And
You do know, don't you?, that ALL of your Democrat and Progressive "friends" go on Pro-Palestine marches.
That they make anti-semitic remarks behind your back?
Anti-semitism comes from the Left.

ADS
ADS
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Whig

You do know, don't you that Trump had no say in who his daughter married or how his grandchildren are raised? He didn't even attend his granddaughter's bat mitzvah. He even asked why Ivanka was the one converting. Ivanka and Jared won't be in the White House this time.

You do know that the Abraham Accords are with a couple of insignificant dictatorships and have little impact on Arab-Israeli relations. If anything, these accords made matters worse by inflaming anti-Israel sentiment in the Arab world, as did moving the US embassy.

No, absolutely false that ALL progressives go to Pro-Palestinian marches. How many have you talked to, or do you just get your information from your biased sources?

What do you think when you hear MAGA paraphrasing Nazi slogans?

Open your eyes!

Robert Whig
Robert Whig
1 year ago
Reply to  ADS

It doesn't matter how much you placate the Left, they will always hate you for being a Jew.

Last edited 1 year ago by Robert Whig
Robert Whig
Robert Whig
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Whig

@ADS

You obviously missed Turmp's daughter, Ivanka, you know the one who married a Jew, converted to Judaism and raises her children, Trump's grandchildren, as Jews, on the victory stage with her Jewish husband as Donald Trump, the 45th President, achieved the rare distinction of also becoming the 47th President.

No President has ever done so much for, or been a greater friend to, Israel as Donald Trump, the 45th and 47th President of the United Staets.

Last edited 1 year ago by Robert Whig
ADS
ADS
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Whig

Good luck. We'll soon learn all over again what sort of a friend he is.

Sdh
Sdh
1 year ago

Maimonides’ epistle to Yemen says it all.

Robert Whig
Robert Whig
1 year ago
Reply to  Sdh

Maimonides was the personal doctor to Saladin himself.

Two extraordinary men!

Saladin was horrified when Maimonides told him what was going on in Yemen.

Saladin told the Yemenis to cease all the attacks on the Jews or he would invade.

The attacks stopped.

That was how great Maimonides' influence on Saladin was.

Robert Whig
Robert Whig
1 year ago

Joseph Nasi and Samuel ibn Naghrillah, two Jews who rose to the top and wielded immense power in Muslim countries.

Can anybody name any Jew who rose to power in Christian countries?

Scott Norman Rosenthal
Scott Norman Rosenthal
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Whig

Nonetheless, Jews were massacred and exploited at the same time that he held power.

Aaron
Aaron
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Whig

That’s kind of like saying “Michael Jordan is a billionaire so therefore racism in America doesn’t exist”

Robert Whig
Robert Whig
1 year ago

There is also Samuel ibn Naghrillah, who was the Grand Vizier of the Muslim Kingdom of Granada.

He led Muslim armies into battle, governed the state of Granada in the name of the Sultan and was a very talented Hebrew poet.

He is, I would say, the greatest Hebrew poet of epic and war poetry.

Robert Whig
Robert Whig
1 year ago

On the other hand, there was a Jew, Joseph Nasi, the Duke of Naxos, who was an extremely talented man and a close friend of the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire.

He used Muslim resources to gain revenge for the Jews by waging war against those Christian countries that had persecuted the Jews, namely, the Netherlands and Spain.

The Christians hated him and the Muslims loved him.

ADS
ADS
1 year ago

One more thing:

While Sahih Bukhari and Ibn Ishaq are important sources, the most important source is the Qur'an itself. I have read most of what the Qur'an says about the Children of Israel and the Jews, but I would love to see a follow up article that collects together these sections and summarizes them.

Only the Qur'an is the "literal word of Allah" and cannot be challenged and cannot be denied. The other sources can be and are dismissed by Muslims when they find it convenient to do so.

Scott Norman Rosenthal
Scott Norman Rosenthal
1 year ago
Reply to  ADS

Muhammed massacred Jews.

ADS
ADS
1 year ago

Yes, the article points that out... however, the article fails to mention what the Qur'an says about it and that is more important. Muslims can deny the stories in the Sirah and they do that when it suits them. No Muslim will deny what it says in the Qur'an.

Judy
Judy
1 year ago

Muhammed was not a real prophet his prophecy wasn't real, Moses was a real prophet and was the highest level prophet, Judaism was seen by lots of people and the other 2 religion comes from Judaism a good book to read true or not is the Kuzari by Yudah Halevi originally written in Arabic then Hebrew and then English about the comparsations about religion I read in English

BSS
BSS
1 year ago
Reply to  ADS

You're kidding about the "literal word" ... that "cannot be challenged and ... denied," right?
The so-called religion is based on the presumed prophecy of a single (illiterate, by the way) individual whose deity supposedly incites followers to kill Jewish "infidels" ; what kind of religion is that, Abdullah?!

ADS
ADS
1 year ago
Reply to  BSS

No, I'm not kidding that Muslims say that their book is the literal word of Allah. It doesn't matter what you think. They won't change a word of it.

You think I'm defending the stupidity of religions based on beliefs like that?

Muslims aren't the only ones with a religion based on presumed prophecies. Right?

BSS
BSS
1 year ago
Reply to  ADS

Nor does it matter what you think!

With regard to your stab at religion, you're right that Islam is not the only one to claim that a single person was (or a few "elites" were) the exclusive receiver(s) of Divine teaching.
However, Judaism is the sole religion in which an entire nation directly heard the word of G-d.

Nevertheless, you're free to ignore that fact.

ADS
ADS
1 year ago
Reply to  BSS

Judaism is what, you say? Huh?

The difference between Judaism and Islam is that Judaism doesn't depend on such beliefs. It can be a great religion without beliefs like what you just said. The majority of Jews that I know don't read our literature so literally.

By contrast, Islam is nothing without a belief that Muhammad was a prophet.

Look at the "divine" teaching for what it says and not by how you think we received it and you'll see the difference! I forget who it was who said to judge a tree by its fruit.

Judy
Judy
1 year ago
Reply to  BSS

You are right, but ADS doesn't like Judaism but other religions, if they are even Jewish they got a problem with Judaism, it is called a self hater, I am on the other hand a proud Jew a child of a Holocaust Survivor( obm)

Judy
Judy
1 year ago
Reply to  ADS

You like other religions but not Judaism, why are liberals like you twistimg the facts instead of getting the real facts, if you claim to be a Jew the people you like so much will get you too, it happened before the Jews that march with our enemies will be in trouble first they are useful idiots if someone is older and are liberal then something is really wrong with them they didn't grow up from their college days

ADS
ADS
1 year ago
Reply to  Judy

I like what some religions teach, after all, that's why we have many religions. I reject the supernatural justifications in any religion for accepting one religion's teachings over another's. If you accept some teaching only because you believe some prophet or storyteller saying that it "came from God", then you are being fooled by a charlatan.

Telling stories is part of how we teach. Judaism is blessed with many timeless stories that have been passed down for millennia. This is the foundation of Judaism.

And, BTW, the ones saying "America for Americans and Americans only" are the ones who will get you. And, don't worry so much about American Muslims: these same people will get them, too!

ADS
ADS
1 year ago

A very fine article. Thank you.

Your sentence: "Let’s not forget, we are talking about a period of 2,000 years and entire continents - there were good periods and bad periods, good rulers and evil rulers everywhere." is key to understanding the history. What can we say about the good rulers and the evil rulers? What were the factors that went into making an evil ruler? Was it religious ideology or was it just individual bad characters?

Your section about Muhammad makes it clear that Jews have been seriously impacted by those who are most influenced by Muhammad, the people we now call "Islamists". Can the opposite be said? There were good times; can we say that these times were more secular, perhaps in both the Jewish and Muslim communities? What is the key to the "good times"?

BBS
BBS
1 year ago
Reply to  ADS

Perhaps "good times" refers to periods when fanatics and extremists (either secular or religious) were not in power and there was (relatively) less coercion.

ADS
ADS
1 year ago
Reply to  BBS

Yes, that is the question that I am posing to anyone who might have studied the "Golden Ages" of Islam. Is there evidence that these societies were essentially secular and liberal? I've asked Muslims the same question and they are unable or unwilling to answer.

Nil
Nil
1 year ago
Reply to  ADS

You've made some very interesting observations (many of which you hinted at without saying outright, if I'm not mistaken).

Is there evidence that these societies were essentially secular and liberal?

It seems like you believe that historically, tolerance and freedom was found mainly in secular/liberal societies?

I can think of a few bad times...

Was it religious ideology or was it just individual bad characters?

But you probably chalk it up to 'bad characters'.

Perhaps "good times" refers to periods when fanatics and extremists (either secular or religious) were not in power and there was (relatively) less coercion.

At least BBS got it right: extremism can be found in any belief system

ADS
ADS
1 year ago
Reply to  Nil

I think you are having trouble distinguishing attributes which are intrinsic in a system and those which are not.

If a society isn't tolerant and free, it can't be called "liberal"; that's what the word means. A religion could be liberal but Islam is not like that so I am assuming that a tolerant Islamic regime could not have been strictly observant.

A religion that teaches "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you ..." is founded on a principle of tolerance, so an intolerant person claiming to be an adherent of this religion is a "bad character".

Our democracies are founded on principles of tolerance. If one turns to extremism, it is no longer holding to the fundamental beliefs of a liberal system and can no longer be called "liberal".

David RT
David RT
1 year ago

Great article with an important message. The Islamic Conquest of Israel was settler-colonialism, producing an apartheid regime where the ancient and indigenous Jewish minority were reduced to a systemically oppressed minority in their own ancestral homeland. Zionism reversed this oppressive system and restored rights to the indigenous minority in their own ancestral homeland - no wonder the privileged oppressors raged when their Arab/Muslim privilege and power was challenged. Being Jewish in the Diaspora was difficult, as well: My grandparents spoke fondly of happy memories in Iraq, but the shadow of antisemitism and generational trauma lingered, and anti-Jewish racism and bigotry ultimately shattered naive dreams, forcing the Jewish communities to flee for their lives, back home to Israel

David
David
1 year ago

Many meforshim like Maharsha and Pele Yoetz say that Jews fared better in Muslim countries, however, no one ever said it was 100% ok. There were rough times.
The key to the article is this phrase:
It is saying that Zionism changed the dynamic. And in that sense, *they are correct, but only insofar as it introduced a Jew who fought back* – not in terms of antisemitic attacks and persecution.
So, you see, he accepts that before Zionism there was no *concept* of Jews fighting back. We never received a Mesorah to fight back. That is the important point. Otherwise, I don't challenge, nor no one challenges, that there were rough and tough times.

Brian D
Brian D
1 year ago
Reply to  David

brilliantly said. Yaakov and Esav is the prototype for how we are meant to behave in galus, and yes we are still in galus. Fighting is an absolutely last resort and humility and peaceful diplomacy are what is needed in 100% of cases. Unfortunately we have lost all the humility now and diplomacy and instead we scream never again, i.e. we will ignore the Torah now and fight !!!

Barb
Barb
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian D

Where do you get your info?!
Israel bends over backwards for peace but all it gets in return is bloodshed!

As ADS has mentioned, fighting is an Arab tactic / Muslim strategy, unfortunately the only language they seem to understand.

Thus, we are forced to retaliate to protect ourselves, but oh, what a difference between us & them: we go out of our way & actually risk our soldiers' safety to spare their (so-called) innocent civilians, while they do the unspeakable to our women, children & elderly!

If you're going to quote the Torah, why don't you mention that when a rodef (pursuer with evil intent) goes after you, you're supposed to get him first?!!

Barb
Barb
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian D

As ADS has mentioned, fighting is an Arab tactic / Muslim strategy, and it's unfortunately the only language they seem to understand.

Thus, we are forced to retaliate to protect ourselves, but oh, what a difference between us & them: we actually risk our soldiers' safety to spare their (so-called) innocent civilians, while they do the unspeakable to our women, children & elderly!

If you're going to quote the Torah, why don't you mention that when a rodef (pursuer with evil intent) goes after you, you're supposed to get him first?!!

ADS
ADS
1 year ago
Reply to  David

And to understand this from the Islamic perspective: Fighting is permitted (obligated) against those who fight against you and against those who have expelled you from your home.

Zionism also changed the dynamic by introducing the concept of a modern Jewish nation, something that is in contradiction with what Islam says about the destiny of the Jewish people.

Since we cannot change their religion, we need to pay more attention to what Muslims are obligated to do.

Last edited 1 year ago by ADS
Tellitlikeitis
Tellitlikeitis
1 year ago
Reply to  ADS

Get your "facts" straight, please!
Before the State of Israel, Arab residents were merely squatters who had migrated there when the land was under the dominion of the Turks!

Those who you say were "expelled" followed the instructions of their Muslim leaders who believed they'd get rid of the Jewish returnees to their homeland, and then these Arab "refugees" (who had been offered peaceful coexistence by Israel) were used as pawns by their own kind for political purposes.

More can be said, of course, but you'll just twist the truth to suit your fallacious perspective; so you see, despite your civil talk, we're on to you!

ADS
ADS
1 year ago
Reply to  Tellitlikeitis

I'm simply pointing out what it says in the Qur'an and how the Arabs view the situation. Your "facts" are irrelevant to them.

It is interesting to note that the "expulsion" referred to in the Qur'an is when the first Muslims chose to leave Mecca to go somewhere where they could practice monotheism. They chose Yathrib (now Medina) because of its Jewish population. "Those who expelled them" refers to their own families back in Mecca. Muhammad was explicitly using "faith in Allah" to set religious affiliation against tribal affiliation.

If we can't think like Muslims, we'll never understand what it is that we are fighting.

Tellitlikeitis
Tellitlikeitis
1 year ago
Reply to  ADS

Heaven forbid that we should stoop so low as to think like them, and we unfortunately have enough experience by now to understand their worldview!
I fail to see your main point (as others apparently do too) but you appear to shrug off historical fact in favor of sympathizing with the world's favorite "underdog."

Judy
Judy
1 year ago
Reply to  Tellitlikeitis

ADS claims to be Jewish, but sounds like a Muslim or another anti semite, and says they are liberal but not for Jews and/ or Israel the real underdog are Jews and Israel the others are not, the worst is self hating Jews the curse is the worst enemy will come from ourselves, with so called Jews like that you don't need enemies

Nil
Nil
1 year ago
Reply to  ADS

True. But what do you think?
Do you know what you are defending?

What do Muslims learn when trying to understand the Jews?

Let's re-phrase: If we can't think like Jews, we'll never understand what it is that we are fighting for.

ARK
ARK
1 year ago
Reply to  David

The claim that Jews never had a concept of fighting back is absolutely absurd.
I suggest you read the Bible and learn about Jewish holidays.

David
David
1 year ago
Reply to  ARK

Hi @Ark
I don't really understand your comment, how can we compare the secular views of what happens today to the Holy Tanach, when wars were directed and fought by the extremely devote and according to the rules outlined in the Torah and decided by prophets. Maybe we're talking about different books? The Jewish People have never fought a war against their multiple sworn enemies that have tried to obliterate them from the face of the Earth since the destruction of the Temple 1956 years ago except for Bar Kochba, which was reversed and considered a mistake when Bar Kochba was exposed as a fake Messiah. We believe the next wars will be fought by Moshiach who will be a proven prophet and will restore not a secular state but the continuation of the Kingdom of David, as it was before, amen

ARK
ARK
1 year ago
Reply to  David

You are the man drowning that refuses to get on the boat because he's waiting for God to save him.
We are the same Jews as the Jews of the Tanakh, the Jews of Megilat Esther, and the Hashmonean Jews.

Judy
Judy
1 year ago
Reply to  ARK

Jews only fight for self defense or when they are in danger Israel is in a hostile neighborhood, Israel has to fight for its survival once Bob Dylan wrote a song " the neighborhood bully" interesting song to listen to

Roberta Gottesman
Roberta Gottesman
1 year ago

One of my doctors is an Egyptian Jew. He has told me that his family's life in Cairo was nearly idyllic, and he has nothing but fond memories up until Nasser expelled all the Jews in the mid-1950s. I guess this is all possible, but then his family were very wealthy. I wonder if middle class or poor Jews in Egypt have similar memories.

cheryl
cheryl
1 year ago

If Jews, were in the Middle East, first, where did the Arabs come from?

Judy
Judy
1 year ago
Reply to  cheryl

In the bible Abraham had a son Ishmael before he had Isaac, Arabs come from Ishmael his mother was Hagar a Eygptian princess a gift from king of Egypt when there was famine in anicent land before becoming Judah

Nadia Noorani
Nadia Noorani
1 year ago

sad reality no one talk about and Jews still kept staying where they were prosecuted I am an Iranian Jew in which my late father lost all of his wealth and land because of being jews or partner with Bahaii in 20th century and still where is the outrage. Anywhere these Islamic clergy or Muslim set their foot, they destroy it. Wait and see what will happen to Europe in few days and poor us Jews, the Chosen one !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Judy
Judy
1 year ago
Reply to  Nadia Noorani

Europe already has Muslim laws there a non Muslim is in danger especially women, what Muslim men do to women also is terrible, in France there is already no go zones the police can't go to those neighborhoods it is very dangerous, Jews are running away from Europe in droves I think and are making Aliyah when I was in Israel last I heard French, when Jews leave Europe the anti semitic Europeans will be stuck with Muslims and will be upset they chased the Jews away

Isabela
Isabela
1 year ago

The word "goy" is racist

Bubbyleb
Bubbyleb
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabela

It literally means nation. It refers to anyone who is not a Jew. Why is that racist?

Judy
Judy
1 year ago
Reply to  Bubbyleb

Everyone belongs to a different nation, so what is racist about this

Judy
Judy
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabela

" goy" actual means " nation" not the Jewish nation

Judy
Judy
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabela

It is Hebrew for nation

Isabela
Isabela
1 year ago

No problem with muslims or jews. I have problem with the word "goy". We cannot discribe the world as goy and non-goy. There are many different cultures around the world. We cannot divide it between jewish culture and not jewish culture. The world is so much bigger than that. Let's erase the word "goy" from our minds, pls

BBs
BBs
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabela

You obviously refuse to understand what the word means.
Bubbyleb's definition (above) is correct; though some do use the term as a pejorative in a similar way that others use "yid," that's their problem!
One can always tell from the context whether or not these words are used as they were intended to be.

Bracha Goetz
Bracha Goetz
1 year ago

WOW!

Kafr Dhimmi
Kafr Dhimmi
1 year ago

Chosen for what? Thank you for exposing the truth surprised you made no mention of the 1929 massacre.

Naftali
Naftali
1 year ago

cont'd: People have difficulty in hating those who are nice to you and the more you know about a potential enemy, the better. Adam and Eve, knowledge is often said to be 'power'. Look at what that power has wrought even though they everything they needed. Cain and Abel, brothers waring and one killed out of jealousy. It wasn't about brothers as much as it was about people in general. How individuals and groups should behave toward each other lest one or more get hurt for nothing. The ten Commandments and Torah were "given" to Jews with the hope that if we modeled the lessons, the world would hopefully learn to do the same. That's what's meant 'light unto the nations'!

Naftali
Naftali
1 year ago

That you for adding some factual context to the issue. Unfortunately, though the two main parties know the truth, one chooses to ignore it and skew the facts to spread dissention. In addition, those outside those two groups choose to remain ignorant as it allows them to point fingers at an alleged boogeyman so no one pays attention to them. And, that further shows their ignorance because they too are being beset upon worldwide. Whether or not Hashem actually gave the bible to Moses, or some sages many years ago wrote it down as a primer could be open to discussion by some.
The "neshama" of the 'Old Testament' points to its genius regardless of how it was generated. Lessons abound therein! Abraham treating his visitors as honored guests.

Roy
Roy
1 year ago

I am non Jewish but is great of you to tell the truth, when in the West we’re told Islam is a peaceful religion. I support Israel in this War. No one talks about How long the others have been firing missles into Israel.
No country would put up with this type of
The West is afraid to insult or disagree with Islamists. The enemy senses this. Israel is standing for Western values. They should all get behind Israel.

Pagan
Pagan
1 year ago
Reply to  Roy

Arab oil changed everything. With the wealth accumulated from oil sales and sympathetic antisemites they could build tunnels and store weapons to attack Israel. But tiny Israel despite fighting wars and terror, is a democracy and an example of what hard-working dedicated citizens can accomplish.

Judy
Judy
1 year ago
Reply to  Pagan

You are right, whoever has the oil has the key to what the world wants, but there is a big price to pay, Iran can nuke everyone if they get the capabilities

Judy
Judy
1 year ago
Reply to  Roy

I agree, you are right, Israel has to save the west if the world doesn't realise you are right, if G _ d forbid Iran gets nukes not only Israel is in danger the world is in danger too

Charlie Hall
Charlie Hall
1 year ago

"qualitatively, the situation of Jews under Muslims throughout the Middle East was not significantly different from that of Jews in Europe"

The Jews who were expelled by the monarchs of England, France, Spain, and Portugal would beg to differ. As would the Jews burned at the stake, hanged, or beheaded in those countries and all over the New World. As would the Jews gassed by the Nazis.

And it needs to be noted that large numbers of Jews found refuge in the Ottoman Empire.

It also should be noted that the 7th century conquest of the Middle East by Arab Muslims prevented a planned genocide of Jews by the Eastern Roman Empire and the conquest of Spain in the next century put an end to the horrible persecution of the Visigoths.

Charlie Hall
Charlie Hall
1 year ago
Reply to  Charlie Hall

We should also credit the Mamluks for permanently ending the presence of the genocidal Crusaders, and for previously handing the Mongols their first real defeat.

Muhsmmad Ali Pasha also ended the first Wahabi Saudi state; unfortunately it returned in the 20th century largely thanks to the British. It is the source for most Sunni Muslim extremism in the world today.

None of this excuses the abuses and murders described of course. But one must compare to the alternative which was usually even more horrific.

Brian D
Brian D
1 year ago
Reply to  Charlie Hall

R' JB Soloveitchik himself said it was obvious that Zionism was the cause of the overwhelming hatred in the Arab world although of course it wasn't exactly a love-affair before Zionism. But let's be honest, Jews lived in Yemen and Iran and Iraq and all of these countries in large numbers before Zionism started. Now it's almost a joke to try to consider such a thing.

Judy
Judy
1 year ago
Reply to  Brian D

Actually, the word "Zion "s mentioned in Jewish religious texts, there is even a saying in Hebrew " from Zion will the Torah come out, and words of G_ d from Jerusalem" if your religious you will know the saying in Hebrew, Arabs hated Jews before Israel was declared a state there was a massacre in Hevron Yeshiva in 1929, actually now anti zionist means anti semitism, if Hashem wanted there should be a Jewish state after the Holocaust then I accept the history, even if some people deny this fact

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